Tasha Van Vlack — The Tempo of Trust: How Consistency Builds Community

Belonging doesn’t happen by accident—it’s built in small, steady moments. Elizabeth Bowman sits down with community architect Tasha Van Vlack, founder of The Nonprofit Hive, to unpack how nonprofits and performing arts groups can move beyond buzzwords and create connection that lasts. From the loneliness many leaders face to the power of one-to-one conversations, Tasha shares a playbook for building trust without big budgets.

We get tactical about cadence and rituals, the quiet engines of community. Think weekly touchpoints instead of marketing blitzes, and visible first-timer signals that invite warm welcomes. We talk merch that actually means something—earned pins and badges that reflect contribution, not just logo placement—and why a flywheel mindset beats the old funnel model when life pulls people in and out. You’ll hear how to elevate natural advocates, host micro-gatherings that feel human, and design recurring partnerships that compound results year over year.

Don’t rush to shiny new tools. Before launching an app or forum, start by investing in the essentials: a clean website, clear ticketing, and thoughtful emails or SMS reminders that people will actually read. Then add layers like behind-the-scenes Zooms, curated introductions, and personal follow-ups that turn transactions into memories. Whether you’re filling seats, welcoming first-timers, or stewarding long-time supporters, this conversation offers practical steps to spark word-of-mouth, strengthen loyalty, and grow community from the inside out.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review—then tell us the one ritual you’ll start this month.

All episodes are also available in video form on our YouTube Channel. All episodes are hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman.

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Don't hesitate to reach out to us with guest ideas, information you'd like covered, or any ideas you might have—the hope is for this to be a continuous resource and dialogue with our listeners.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Season Two: Human-First Connection
• 2:10 Tasha’s Path Into Community Work
• 5:30 Why Nonprofit Work Feels Lonely
• 8:35 Community As A Verb
• 12:15 Matching People One-to-One That Matters
• 15:40 Cadence, Rituals, And Showing Up
• 19:30 Belonging, Merch, And Meaning
• 24:10 Funnels Fail, Flywheels Belong
• 27:20 Partnerships That Repeat, Not One-Offs
• 31:20 Light, Consistent Marketing That Feels Real
• 35:10 Boards As Community, Not Ornaments
• 39:20 Design Events For Who You Need
• 43:00 Create Belonging At The Door
• 47:10 Signals, Lanyards, And Consent To Connect
• 50:30 Listen To First-Timers, Then Iterate

Transcript

Elizabeth Bowman: 0:00

Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman, and welcome to season two of The Seam Room. I have Tasha Van Vlack here today. Tasha is a community builder disguised as a marketer with a background in nonprofit engagement, digital strategy, and making things happen with tiny teams. She's the founder of the Nonprofit Hive, a global peer connection platform. And the brains behind community hives, which helps organizations spark one-on-one conversations that actually go somewhere. I was delighted to have this conversation today, and right now she's diving headfirst into scaling relational tech and dreaming up what's next for human first connection tools. And that is exactly the theme of season two of this podcast. So what a delight to have Tasha here today. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, comment, share episodes, do any of those free things to help get the word out. I really appreciate it. And now let's get to the podcast. Tasha, welcome to the scene room. Thanks so much for being here.

Tasha Van Vlack: 1:13

This is amazing. Thanks so much for having me, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Bowman: 1:16

I do love encountering guests for this podcast on LinkedIn. And I can thank Ali Marshall for connecting us on LinkedIn. And she really sang your praises in a comment while I was looking for people who specialize in community engagement. And she said, I'm gonna read it here, that Tasha Van Black is a must-hear, generous, insightful, and generally vivacious and also humble expert on all things community.

Tasha Van Vlack: 1:46

Now, you know what? I wasn't nervous about this podcast until you just read that because I couldn't remember exactly what she had said. And now I feel like I, man, that that's a bar that I hope I can jump over today. That's so lovely. I love Allie.

Elizabeth Bowman: 2:00

Can you tell our listeners a bit about who you are, what you do, a brief history? You know, we don't have to go too deep into it, but just to give context about why you're here. Absolutely.

Tasha Van Vlack: 2:14

So my name is Tasha. I am a Canadian from a originally very small town. And I kind of realized, I guess, in retrospect, that I've always been building community. I have a mother who is a super connector, just you know, you can't take her anywhere. We have been all over Europe and she just makes friends. Any room you go in, any bar, she is that person. And so I think I had a really shining example of someone who just builds community and remembers people. And so I grew up with that being my backdrop. But professionally, I went in initially to sales, then because it was all small businesses, I became a marketer because there was none. And so you kind of de facto become this client engagement person who helps find the right service for the right fit for the right client. And I loved that work. And about eight years ago now, stepped into a role that was serving the nonprofit world. And it was originally with an organization that was focused deeply on compassion, fatigue, and burnout in the sector. So it was quite the deep dive into the nonprofit world. I fell in love with the people in the sector immediately and then had a series of roles, all very people focused in the sector. And that led me down the path of realizing, particularly post-COVID, how lonely nonprofit work truly can be, how nonprofit professionals are out there supporting others all the time, but are not often receiving that same support back. And that is happening in between nonprofit professionals as well. We're not cheerleading each other on all that well in the work. So two years ago, this month, launched the Nonprofit Hive, which is a free community international for nonprofit professionals to meet once a week on a one-to-one call. Of course, that was like the very basic premise, and it's exploded since then into articles and LinkedIn live panel discussions about important topics across the sector. And we've slowly grown to 2,400 members in 90 countries and just been putting people into conversations so they could talk about their work and what matters to them in nonprofit.

Elizabeth Bowman: 4:29

Amazing. And out of all of those nonprofit members, do you know how many are working in the performing arts sector?

Tasha Van Vlack: 4:37

Ooh, that'd be a really good question. I do know that we are particularly executive directors and very high up, often the smaller nonprofits in the art that it's smaller nonprofits in the art space that we're finding that are joining. Although we have one member gonna shout him out. Marvin Caron has been involved deeply since we started, and he runs Shakespearean's performing arts, and they go into schools here in Ontario, the province that I live, and use Shakespeare's words and translate it into more modern-day context to start pushing that love for all things performing arts and just an incredible human. He's been doing this for over 30 years and was a performing artist, still is himself. And so he is one of our most prolific members and has been very involved since the beginning.

Elizabeth Bowman: 5:27

So this idea of having a place for not-for-profit workers in general to connect, I think is wonderful because as you just mentioned, it can be a very lonely business because oftentimes people in the performing arts have multiple hats that they need to wear in their jobs and don't have, like you just said, the support and camaraderie within the workplace that I mean, because they're just actually burnt out, they're too busy to necessarily connect. And this brings me to the reason for season two, which is community engagement. And I do believe that community engagement has to be birthed from within from your people before you can expand it outward. So what are you seeing with that in mind?

Tasha Van Vlack: 6:17

I think we've gotten the words community mixed up a little bit. And you already started to kind of lead down this path. But too often we're treating community as like a line item in a grant application that we're writing. We say we're gonna do community engagement, but what does that mean? And too often I have seen nonprofits and not just nonprofits, we could extend this into tons of different spaces and sectors. But community engagement is truly just this passive action. We're using a lot of language that suggests community, but it's actually not a verb. We're not doing community as a verb. Like there's a inherent action to community that's required for community to build on itself. And it's kind of slow, which is in nonprofit, I'm sure with your experience too. It's hard to realize that you're building a foundational base that is required for community. And that doesn't usually move super quickly. And when we're looking at funding all the time and super concerns, and hey, we need dollars now, it's hard to invest in things that are slow. And community engagement is messy and it's relational, and it doesn't always fit that well into a beautiful impact report that we'd like to give to our major donors or our boards. And so I think it's we use the words, but they tend to feel a little hollow in this sector because we're not doing that foundational practice to build real community.

Elizabeth Bowman: 7:43

Yeah, I guess you have to bring it back to everyone's own life and why you do things. Like why are you connected to even that group of friends that you're connected to? How did that happen? Or, you know.

Tasha Van Vlack: 7:58

What was your, you know, even for you and I being here on this podcast today, there was this cool relational connection that came about that sparked something new, right? And brought about impact. And you have to make space for those moments. And that's kind of community work is slow and it requires a level of care that, as we already noted, if you're the executive director at a small nonprofit and performing arts nonprofit in a small town, how do you build in time for that kind of work? And I I think it's a real struggle.

Elizabeth Bowman: 8:30

So, in terms of your facilitation of these connections and and that kind of stuff, what uh what are you seeing? Do you see your members connecting with other members in similar businesses? Or yeah, just I mean, it just I have no idea. I've not actually been in your infrastructure.

Tasha Van Vlack: 8:51

Yeah, no, well, and now you're gonna have to join. You're gonna have to jump in and try it out because I think it's pretty special what we have kind of started to spark. But I think that's what I look at these one-to-one conversations as. It's a it's a spark, it's an opportunity for connection. And often it's not one check box that really sparks connection, right? It's not just a love of Shakespeare that's probably gonna spark the connection, but it's that next step, right? Where you go, oh wait, are you both two students in grade 12 and you also have a love for Shakespeare? Well, that's kind of cool, right? Like because now you it's that niching down where we find real connections. So we just had a lovely, very unexpected post on LinkedIn where one of the executive directors that I connected with, another executive director, both in the mental health space. She invited him to come and participate in this mental health panel discussion about men and mental health that she put together in Washington. And I had no idea this was happening. I just put them in touch and thought, well, clearly, you're two EDs in mental health. You should talk to each other because I bet you're gonna have so many connecting points. He's early in his journey. She is many years into being an ED. What could these two humans have and support each other? She decided to take it that step further, and he decided to accept that invitation to that next step further, right? And what can we learn from each other? How can we help up, not only upskill, but up resource in terms of people power each other in the nonprofit sector? And I think that's something we're generally not doing all that well.

Elizabeth Bowman: 10:28

Do you think there's something about frequency that is important in terms of community? How often, and of course, we can't necessarily be at all the things that organizations put together, but the idea of having that open space and that open arrangement where you could, in fact, on Wednesdays at this time go and connect with people on some level, whether that be online or whether that be in person, in my head, I think that this sort of tempo and frequency matters. Absolutely.

Tasha Van Vlack: 11:04

Yeah. Cadence is huge. Our nonprofit hive community, to use it as an example, we meet every Thursday. Every Thursday, regardless of how frequently we have people who have showed up for almost a hundred weeks of conversation since we started. So almost they've missed like three since we began. And we have people who showed up three times in the same amount of time, but they know we're there. They know on Friday they get an invite to participate. And by Monday night, if they've signed up for a time slot, they're gonna get introduced to somebody else in the sector. But it has to, I think there's a flexibility to community building and community engagement that we're constantly trying not to make it prescriptive, but also keep that beautiful, joyous spot of going, you can rely on this ritual we have, whether it be every Wednesday, we have an online reading. I'm gonna keep going back to Shakespeare here now because Marvin's in my head, but we have an online reading by two of our, you know, community members highlighting a stanza from this beautiful part of a Shakespeare play. We're gonna be there. It's gonna be streaming from YouTube or wherever you decide. We'd love for you to show up, but commit to that. Do that. Try it out for six months, let's say. And if it turns out it really didn't help build community, it's okay to let those things go and try something new. But I think too often uh nonprofits put effort into an enormous venture to build community without realizing that too often it's those little touch points and consistencies that actually help pull together community in between really big events.

Elizabeth Bowman: 12:39

You know, it's interesting because so I have a 10-year-old daughter, and she just joined a swim team. And, you know, as someone who's observing community engagement wherever I go, I'm always fascinated by how people do this. And the swim team, they practice a lot. I think her team practices three times a week, if not more. At the onset of this, they had a like an entire lake event where everyone from the swim community went and they had games. Nothing to do with swimming, it's just about connecting the kids with one another and also the parents to connect with one another. But then it was immediately into having them have their branded swim uniforms and all this stuff. It's very serious. Like they've got jackets, they've got this. You know what I mean? Like it's like they're going to you know, but it's and it's funny because you know, of course, it can get expensive, and that's an another conversation, but the idea that they feel like they belong, that they have this sense of ownership. I can see the excitement. My daughter's excited to get her suit, she's excited to wear the swim caps that say her name on them, and you know, they've really really hit the nail on the head with that. They've psychologically entered into what excites the little ones. Because generally a 10-year-old is not necessarily in need of branded swimsuits and names on jackets and all this stuff, but it makes a huge difference to how she feels when she goes to the pool going with her swim gear and all that stuff, bags and and that kind of thing. What what are your thoughts on that? Like, what is the importance of merchandise? I mean, because some people they have merchandise and no one buys it. So it's what are your thoughts and on the methods as well on how to Yeah.

Tasha Van Vlack: 14:37

I think merchandise can be very powerful, but you almost have to have a really great brand behind it first, right? And the messaging has to be so on point or the value proposition has to be so on point. So you can invest in very cool merchandise, but if no one's really connecting to your mission or what your nonprofit is doing out in the world, or in this case, a for-profit swim team, there's going to be, I'm sure, some girls who get there don't feel like they belong in some sort of way, and actually for many reasons. Maybe swimming's not their thing, maybe a parent pushed them into it, maybe there's a girl there that they they don't, you know, jive with. It's not always going to be for everyone, but there are going to be those individuals where, hey, if you're a 10-year donor to a small performing arts organization and there's a way to meaningfully showcase for that person, right? Like specialized t-shirts for just those kinds of individuals. Well, that to me is a great merchandise investment because it gets people thinking about it. It's something someone else can be proud of that recognizes their investment into that community. So I think oftentimes you can see people do walk runs, things like that for an organization I've been involved with here is doing an organ donation community walk this weekend. Those kinds of t-shirts are quite meaningful because they acknowledge that you're part of X community. Maybe you've had a donation, maybe you are a donor, maybe you have a family member who's been had an organ donation. That's a beautiful way to kind of showcase and show that you're a part of a community. It might be totally different for a performance art organization, like what is meaningful to your members, and then see if there's a merchandise piece that ties into what is meaningful for your members. But you can't, you don't get to dictate, I don't think, as the nonprofit, what the value proposition of your work is to your members. So I'd always be trying to co-create, if you think merchandise is cool, co-create that with your members, right? Like what would they like to see? Do they want hats? Do they want t-shirts? Could you go, hey, we're really looking to like have a design contest to highlight, you know, our members. Like there are ways to do that with your community. And if you get absolutely no response and no one seems interested, that might answer the question of whether merchandise is worth investing in.

Elizabeth Bowman: 16:57

Yeah, it reminds me of do you know Park Run? It's out of well, it birthed out of the UK. Okay. And it's it's every Saturday they do a 5k because you just mentioned your walk run and it's free and amazing. And you get a barcode on your phone. It's it's really great. There's no, I mean, it's just incredible. Every time I'm in the UK, my parents live in the UK, so I go there most summers and I do park run. And it is wild how many people come out for parkrun. And every time I'm there, I'm like, I wish they had more parkrun. Well, any in where I live. Yeah. They just did their first New York City park run, I think, at the end of August. Anyway, and I also actually wrote to the guy who formed Parkrun because I'm hoping to have him on the podcast. Amazing. He hasn't responded yet. Anyway, they have t-shirts that acknowledge people who have done 50 park runs, 100 park runs, and they're different colors. It's like 200 park runs, right? Yeah. And people are wearing them at the park runs. They are owning this the whole brand is just walking.

Tasha Van Vlack: 18:12

Right. Like because they feel like they're a part of something. And you you you you can't decide for your membership, uh, donors, any of the you can't decide for them that that is for them. They have to opt into it, right? Um which I think is sometimes something that can be really hard with community building because we wish everyone was at the same level at the same time, right? We always constantly, like if you're in marketing with my background or sales, you're always talking about funnels, right? And moving people up the funnel or, you know, or down the funnel, or it's go, they're going in one direction or the other. But that's not how people work, right? And that's the flywheel model is something that's really come into marketing, but I'm working to adapt it a lot more into the community building space as well, because people come in and come out and they're in deep for a season. Maybe one season they can buy tickets to every show and they are that level of supporter for your nonprofit. You cannot make the presumption that they will do the exact same thing every year, but you can still find ways to make them feel included, show the value of what they offered in one year, so that maybe in three years, when they can do it again, they're able to join back in. So I think we get too focused in on the, well, if someone leaves at this level, there's no way to pull them back into caring. That's not the case. They may not have left due to lack of care. Life is busy, you know, right? We have to be more flexible in what we look at as our community.

Elizabeth Bowman: 19:39

I do love the idea of a tiered merchandise situ scenario, not necessarily with t-shirts, you know, everywhere, because I mean that works for park run because you run in a t-shirt. Yeah. But I mean, in terms of the opera and symphony space, which I think about a lot because of my background in the arts being in the classical performing arts sphere, I think that, you know, recognizing that someone went to a thousand shows at the Canadian Opera Company, for instance. Yeah. And, you know, like you say, they may not necessarily be in a position to be one of the massive donors who are at the top of that donor list. They may not be in a position to do that, but they're in a position to buy the cheap seats and go all the time, which equates to a huge amount of support. And we have no way of recognizing those people, as far as I can tell. And then they're not in the program ever. And what? Like they could wear a cool pant that says, I'm in the platinum club, and not the platinum donor club. The I actually am here, I'm on the ground.

Tasha Van Vlack: 20:49

Yeah. Well, and I think community has to include so far beyond the donor, right? Your community is also your staff, it's your volunteers, it's the people who may never buy more than one ticket, but are somehow impacted by the presence of your organization, even existing in the world. And what are they saying about you out in the world, right? Because we can spend thousands of dollars on Google ads and Facebook ads to try to get people to shows. We know that word-of-mouth marketing is by far the most powerful tool we have to get new interest and get people out there. But like you noted, we're often not highlighting those individuals that well. And it's partly because it's really hard to measure brand awareness through community ambassadors. But I know it's happening in my community all the time. You know, this LinkedIn story that all of a sudden thousands of new eyes get on something that I just made a quick introduction, right? And it, but if clearly was of deep value to those two people, they're now out there talking about it on LinkedIn on about, and I get to get all the love. And so does my community from that one post. I think sometimes we forget that your nonprofits' message, if you're the ED listening or marketing team or any of those people internal in-house to your organization, you can talk about how amazing your organization is. Other people talking about how amazing your organization is way more powerful than your in-house team talking about how great your organization is. If you're a founder like myself, I can talk about how cool the people in my community are all day. But them talking about it is way more powerful than me talking about it.

Elizabeth Bowman: 22:28

Yeah. And I think part of that also comes from this idea of consistent partnerships where because I I see a lot of one-offs in the in the arts where there will be an organization that yeah, partners with, you know, another organization, but it's one one time. And it it's it doesn't happen, you know, year after year for a certain amount of years. And I think that it needs to happen. Like for instance, when I was young, I used to go sing carols or something in retirement residences and hospitals and that kind of stuff. If a performing arts organization, for instance, partnered with an organization that dealt with that kind those kinds of institutions and then did that year after year, I think that that would have a huge amount of mileage. Whereas if they did it once, it doesn't actually even crack the surface because you know, they're like, oh, they did that thing once. It's like if you went running and you went running once. Yeah, you know, you you win.

Tasha Van Vlack: 23:35

Well, this comes back to initially what we were talking about, even with that consistency, cadence, rituals, one-offs. I mean, they have to be really exciting to have a one-off, have a huge impact, right? And how much work did you have to put in? Co-branded material, a marketing campaign, all of those things. Well, they're so much easier to leverage the second time, the third time, the foot, you know, it actually becomes less work the more frequently you do something like that because you already have the collateral. You can improve upon what you did last time that maybe did not work. And now this time is like fantastic, right? And hey, we've got this outreach down pat. We already had five sponsors from last time we can go back to because they loved the experience so much. Or, hey, this type of sponsor really just seemed to sing with our community and they responded so well to it. And this group was really great at helping us with outreach. How can we replicate that and find five more organizations who are willing to, you know, talk about us this way? But if you just do it once, I don't think that you're going to have the same impact at all.

Elizabeth Bowman: 24:39

Yeah. So I think to sum it up, I think that organizations need to really look at the partnerships that they're interested in having and the message behind those partnerships, and then commit to a consistent schedule. And then the message will become clear. And it's like you don't even need to necessarily have a huge PR team behind that because it becomes your message. Like you say, the people are talking about it because it is a regular consistent thing that happens.

Tasha Van Vlack: 25:13

Absolutely. I find one of the most common practices I see among small to medium-sized nonprofits that don't maybe maybe you have one dedicated marketer, maybe you don't. Maybe your team is kind of joint-owning marketing. But coming in with a flurry of marketing and it's in marketing overdrive for like four weeks before a big event because you're trying to sell tickets or whatever, and no one has heard from you in six months is possibly it's so frequent, and I understand why it happens. But I even will frequently talk to small marketing teams or small teams and go, could you pull off one post a week that just reminds people you're there? Could you highlight a community member who a volunteer, you know, sponsor in the sector, or just even, hey, remember when we did this cool thing? If you were part of it, you often have beautiful pictures and so much to work with from a performing arts organization that an impact team doing local neighborhood stuff may not actually be able to pull in that much marketing material on a regular basis. It's okay to talk about something you've already talked about because you're not just talking to the people who were there, you're talking to the people you hope will come in the future, right? And um, I always think that like there's nothing old. There's there's amazing ways to reshare something you've done before.

Elizabeth Bowman: 26:30

Yeah. And also never mind the fact that your company is formed with a huge amount of people, or you know, not necessarily a huge amount, because small organizations often have about, you know, a small amount of people. But even that, if you have 10 people working for one organization, then you have 10 different lives.

Tasha Van Vlack: 26:50

Like why are they there? What what is what what drove them to do this work, right? Like why do they keep investing? Why are they on this team? If you can do 52 posts one per week for the whole year, and you have five styles, okay. One's a volunteer highlight, one's of this, one's of that, one's about the building we're in, one's about the history of why we started. You can fill out a schedule pretty quick, even with just one quality post a week. And I actually think, given the state of social media, people don't want perfection, right? They're just looking for something real and authentic. And so this does not have to be high production value, beautiful videos. If you've got those awesome, definitely use them, but it doesn't have to be fancy.

Elizabeth Bowman: 27:34

Yeah, we've really gone a 180 on that. It used to be this whole everything has to be amazing production value. I would say that audio quality is still of the utmost importance for content creators.

Tasha Van Vlack: 27:48

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Bowman: 27:49

If you have someone standing outside and wind is blowing and they're, you know, I'm immediately pressing the next post. But I am I'm in a full agreement. Yeah. I mean, if it's if they're not being natural or authentic, you can tell. And if it's shot in a too pristine manner, then you know that it's just too manicured to Yeah.

Tasha Van Vlack: 28:10

And if you're a small performing arts group, very much focused on local, let's say, hey, I really want to bring in local, is something super pristine actually your audience? Like you are trying to speak to the people you want to have show up. And so what are their reasons for coming? If you tend to put on kind of gritty performances, right? Or I don't know, it could be, I always just try to look at what I'm creating and who I'm hoping it's going to speak to the most, right? Because yeah, you want you want people to feel like, oh, this is something I have to be at because this this is for me. And how can you put that into your marketing?

Elizabeth Bowman: 28:48

Do you ever get asked about board creation and board like board of directors? I'm talking not about being board, board of directors.

Tasha Van Vlack: 28:59

I mean, your board is part of your community, or they should be, right? So you should really. I know it's very challenging with boards. I think there's a lot of reasons why people join a board. And really Ali Marshall's the person. Back to Ali Marshall who introduced us. Ali Marshall's the person to talk to you about this because she talks about boards and that's how we connected. She's so brilliant. And I know in nonprofit, boards are a touchy subject and a challenging subject. And people don't really know what to do with their boards. People join boards for different reasons. We're all sometimes nonprofits themselves, are guilty of courting boards based on wealth metrics and indexes. And then that doesn't end up working to their advantage because that board member doesn't actually want to do any of the actual work. So, do you have a working board? Is this a board just for connections? Are they a fundraising board? How does that factor in? But I do think your board should be part of your community. They should understand what's happening and some of that impact of what your nonprofit. Profit is doing and that brand awareness piece and getting people involved. I feel like if your board is not part of your community, that to me would be a bit of a like an indicator that maybe it's not the right board if they don't actually want to be involved with what you're creating truly. Then that's yeah.

Elizabeth Bowman: 30:16

I think that you know, I understand, you know, some people don't have huge means, so they have that whole saying, give, get, or get off or something. Is that the saying? I don't know.

Tasha Van Vlack: 30:27

I'm not sure I've heard that one, but now I'm like, I'm gonna have to go look it up. I'm glad I said that on my podcast. Yes, I was gonna say you decide what to do with that.

Elizabeth Bowman: 30:35

But there's, you know, the idea that a board member is giving, donating to the cause, and that's why they're there, like you say. They're there for financial reasons. Get or there's some sort of action to get they get the money so that they're you know, they're fundraising. That would make sense, yeah. And there's something about action. So they are putting in the work, let's say. Yeah, you know, helping behind the scenes if they don't necessarily have the network or the the wealth to support. But I think that having, like we were saying at the beginning of this conversation about the consistency and the tempo and the frequency of meeting, the idea of having small gatherings where people are invited, and even if it's in a mid-sized home, the idea of just having gatherings. And I haven't seen a lot of that. Maybe I'm just hanging out with the wrong people and I haven't been invited.

Tasha Van Vlack: 31:34

I doubt that. I doubt that.

Elizabeth Bowman: 31:36

But but the idea of again, you're connecting on a human level, so it's you know, maybe you have a rotating, your board rotates and invites 10 to 15 people over for uh wine and cheese or something, having that once a month and it's different people that are invited, so that you're talking about the vision and the mandate of the company. But the idea of sort of rotating that around and like a book club, except it's a it's a people club, so you're meeting and connecting and finding different people to connect with on different levels. I like that idea on in terms of boards and expanding the network as well. Yeah.

Tasha Van Vlack: 32:17

Well, and I think it's also what is your performing arts nonprofit trying to cultivate, right? What kind of community, and you can be really honest with yourselves. Hey, we really need people who are gonna buy tickets. That's really where we're at, right? Like that means that's what the biggest priority is. Well, are you hosting events that speak to someone who would hold tickets, or are you trying to get planned giving donations for the future? Or are you trying to court a major donor? Well, those are all kind of very different personas, as you know, if you're a if you're listening to this and you're a fundraising person, so all kind of go, oh yeah, this makes total sense. But those are very different individuals. And I think if if what you're trying to do is sell subscriptions and tickets, and that's really the deep focus and that you're working in that kind of a price point, is a gala the best way to try to cultivate those connections? Or do we need to make sure that we're creating really accessible events for the people who are maybe our foundational supporters in the long term of our nonprofit? And I think it kind of got skewed too far into this gala kind of direction. I mean, I always joke that if someone asked me to go to a golf tournament, you know, uh, can I just donate to you? But I'm not gonna go to that golf tournament, right? Like I'd happily donate, but I'm not gonna go to the golf tournament. That's not gonna work for me. That's not in my time, how I give my time away. But if you asked me to go to a like barbecue, yeah, I'm hard in. That sounds delightful. I want to meet and connect with people. So can you have a variety of ways that you connect with your donors that satisfy different types of people's ways of connection or get super innovative? We have one of our members from the nonprofit hive who invited us. He's in Uganda, runs an amazing arts-focused nonprofit. They do arts therapy for refugee children, and he's got a master's in art and he's just one of the coolest humans, faces up Uganda. If anyone's listening, you got to check out their stuff. And he invited any of us who'd participated, were supporters in any way, volunteers, people just advocates, come and join us on a beautiful Zoom call. And he took us around to meet some of the children, the projects they're working on. And I got to do that from my house at 9 a.m. in the afternoon in Uganda. Like, what a special experience to have that kind of like behind the scenes because I'm supporting. So I think we can be innovative too, especially at smaller nonprofits. You don't have to spend a ton of money or your staff's time. What really matters to your supporters?

Elizabeth Bowman: 34:47

Yeah, I definitely agree that there are different tiers of events that focus on different types. Like if you are looking for a certain level of donor and you or you're looking for ticket buyers, that's a completely different thing. But yeah, ultimately just having the door open in some manner, like you mentioned the Zoom thing. That yeah, with all this online scrolling and all this stuff. I mean, anything where we can ultimately actually connect. What do you think they should be teaching in university programs or college programs about anyone interested in getting into the not-for-profit tier? Oh my goodness.

Tasha Van Vlack: 35:26

I will fully and openly have said this many times. I have a biology degree and a history minor. And I would say probably 70% of those in nonprofit I know, that's how they got into nonprofit. They went to school for something entirely different, somehow ended up down this garden path. And then there are, again, this other 30% that this was either always the path they've been on. They are a generational nonprofiteer, which is amazing. I didn't even know it was out there until I ended up in a role that was serving this sector. I think it's very easy for some of us with deep privilege to not understand what is a nonprofit and what isn't. We don't even know, right? We doesn't even compute to me that all of those cool shows I was going and seeing at the grand theater in my hometown were part of what was being put on by a nonprofit. I didn't know. So part of it would be, I guess, if you are going to school, man, going to school to for a for a nonprofit focus, that would be so interesting. I guess whenever we have people who are joining the nonprofit hive specifically because they're interested in moving into this sector, I think they're joining us and asking to join because they want an honest opinion on this sector. So before you even think about going to school in this, I would volunteer at a nonprofit. I would get in there and see what it looks like to really understand what nonprofit life looks like. It is beautiful. It is hard work too. And it can be both, right? It can be hard work and wonderful and meaningfully, you know, some a place to find employment. But I don't think it's necessarily easy work. And anyone who thinks that nonprofits are flush with cash, I don't know what nonprofit you're at. So, like that's a that's a reality. But I think I would for most people going to school these days, I would say your social skills are going to be critical and a differentiator for most sectors moving forward. You know, can you talk to people? Are you willing to pick up a phone? Are you willing to get in there and build relationships? So probably more that emotional intelligence piece and social skills, I think, are the find a course that offers something in that vein. Because if it's just theory based, I think you're gonna be in in deep trouble in the landscape moving forward.

Elizabeth Bowman: 37:38

Good agree. Yeah, I think that these programs really need to focus. Well, our whole conversation is focusing on community engagement because I think that that's something that is dwindling in the performing arts sphere, which is why which is why audience numbers are declining. I don't think it's because opera is dead or the symphony is dead or any of these things. I think I think it's because they're they're losing their connection to the people. So I think that these programs really need to I guess students usually when they're doing their postgrad or they're doing their their their bachelors are luckily still in that place where they are surrounded by community because you know you have your everyone goes to the same gym and everyone is going to the same bar, and at least it was when I was in school. I don't know if that's the same way it is now, but it was when I was in school. We would often convene at the same places, or you would know that so and so was over here and so-and-so was over there. So you could always go to a coffee shop and run into somebody and know that the door again is open, and just sort of open up the eye to those students and maybe remind them what is around them and what is creating that community for them.

Tasha Van Vlack: 38:58

Yeah, there's a belonging and anticipation piece to community too, right? How can we create belonging and how can we create anticipation for the next event, even if we couldn't go to the past one? But you know, you're not necessarily cultivating a fear of missing out. I think you're just cultivating instead this oh my goodness, wouldn't it be so amazing if I could make it here? And if I can't, I'm gonna try to prioritize the next time because again, that cadence, that ritualistic piece. I think as human beings, we're looking for belonging more than ever. Nonprofits are uniquely positioned to create feelings of belonging, but that's going to require us leaning less on automation, email, all of those pieces can help support belonging, but people create belonging, not, you know, not a space. You can have the most brilliant nonprofit mission and value and vision statement and all of those things, but your team and that community is going to keep people coming back again and again and again. So, yeah, the people part of it is where I think we're sometimes dropping the ball.

Elizabeth Bowman: 40:02

How would you recommend a symphony hall or even an opera hall? How would you recommend that organization to create that sense of belonging into the concert hall?

Tasha Van Vlack: 40:15

Yeah, if you have members of your team, and I I actually hilariously was just writing about this a little bit today on LinkedIn because I don't know if you follow along or you have a 10-year-old daughter. Actually, this may be very relevant. Taylor Swift, holy heck, if you want to watch somebody build a movement off of the average person just being blown away by feeling like they belong to something. My daughter and I are about to go to this movie release and she's making bracelets all morning. She's 14. 14-year-old girls don't like a whole lot of anything or anyone, and she's cannot wait to meet strangers and dance in the aisles at a movie theater all around this feeling of belonging to something special that's happening today, right? So Taylor Swift, brilliant in some of those kind of marketing but belonging feelings. But I do think if you are the ED fundraiser marketer at a smaller nonprofit, is it possible to start finding your champions and advocates and start creating more of an in-depth relationship? Put, hey, once a month we do a quick reach out, we do a phone call, we cultivate some deep relationships and give those people a status. Like, go, hey, we're gonna actually have a little meet and greet before the event. And we'd love for you to welcome other people at the door with us, right? How can you leverage those people who you already see in your community who are deeply involved, who deeply care, and elevate them into a position of door greeter, right? Or at the nonprofit hive, we have ambassadors, but we also have people who I know I can put anyone in a conversation with them and it'll be a smash hit. So our newbies, first callers, second time, you know, people who are community members, they get a very curated experience because we know this is the first time they're showing up. And how can you make it feel like a warm hug when you enter the building? And that doesn't have to be just your team, that can be an extension of your team. And then those people feel like they are valued while at the same time bringing someone else into something meaningful. So I think nonprofits hesitate at doing some of those things because they feel like they can't control what is said because it's not just the team's messaging. But I actually think that's a it's unfortunate because I think your advocates, you're gonna know who's gonna say wonderful things about you. How could you like bring those people up into a deeper part of the community and know that they're going to make it all feel special? So when you're at that front door, it's like, hey, we've got 20 advocates who are out there on the floor with us, just welcoming people and saying, hey, is this your first time that you're coming to the show? You can probably even know who those people are and give some sort of first timer pin. I don't know, right? Like, and just give them that opportunity to feel like, man, I'm gonna come back to one of these shows. This is amazing. I just met all these wonderful people, right?

Elizabeth Bowman: 43:04

Yeah, I I do love the idea of offering some sort of sign that they are first timers. Like the ushers, when they're splitting the tickets, could have a t-shirt on that says, Is it your first time tell me or something? Because they're not gonna say, like, is it your first time? Yeah. Every time they're ripping tickets or special gifts for first timers or something very clear in bold, bold writing. And then, yeah, the idea of having these people on the floor maybe also wearing ambassador t-shirts, like even if the organizational t-shirts where they can stand on the different levels and approach, in particular, people who have this sign. Yeah.

Tasha Van Vlack: 43:46

Well, and I don't know if you've ever seen when I've been to a couple conferences and deeply appreciated this. And and during COVID, they took it even to the next level where I was at a couple conferences where you got your lanyard, but you actually pick the color of your lanyard because are you you're gonna have green? Because it's during COVID. I'm not actually that worried about shaking hands with other people. And yes, I accept hugs and and warm welcomes, like ton that level, or here's the yellow people who are like, Yeah, like we're gonna give some space. And then the people who had red ones, they've chosen that because they don't want to get up in front and communicate with people. We've seen ones where they add like lanyards and you could choose different sayings, you know, like I'm an extreme extrovert, please talk to me, and you know, and other people who are going, I'm in learning mode. It's it is only kind, I think, sometimes to allow people to self-reflect on how do they want to engage at this time in community, and you know, because you have to find spaces for all those people. Some people may just be there because they want to hear the show and they're not actually looking to do much more. But how can you give them that and someone else something deeper at the same time?

Elizabeth Bowman: 44:53

Yeah, I I like that it's uh multi-tiered multi-dimensional in that you have their emotional state as well as they take the box at first timer, but what kind of first timer are they? And that could be interesting too, that you would have different colors of pins or stickers or whatever, you know, and some people might want to just take the sticker and just put it in their purse, you know, not not be identified.

Tasha Van Vlack: 45:21

That's okay. And, you know, most nonprofits, regardless, or if you're selling event tickets, you probably can tell who was a first-time person. Is it possible to like pick out of a hat 10 first-time people in the next week to have a quick call and go, hey, we'd love to hear how that experience was. What do you think we're doing great? What would you like more for a welcoming? Like, what kind of events are you hoping to see? That little piece of market research, we underestimate how much that people appreciate it and how much they feel like they're a part of something. So, you know, it can't always just be an email follow-up. That's not going to be enough for some people to really feel like there's a there's a deep space of belonging. It's a great start, but taking it to that next level is often really critical to really move people into a deeper community feel.

Elizabeth Bowman: 46:08

How important do you think apps are in terms of organizations, like more established organizations? You know, we're talking ones that need to sell 2,000 or so tickets or things.

Tasha Van Vlack: 46:23

Like as in using something like Eventbrite versus Luma versus like that, that kind of stuff? Or event or apps as in continued connecting points?

Elizabeth Bowman: 46:32

Continued connecting points as an app. Like I I was on the Met Opera app the other day. I actually went on to see if I could access their, they have the Met Series, Met Radio, and they stream all their opening night shows, right? So I figured I actually went on to the app and I thought, of course, it will be here. But it was not there.

Tasha Van Vlack: 46:58

Oh gosh. Well, that's uh disappointing.

Elizabeth Bowman: 47:00

Anyway, that was disappointing. But anyway, yeah, so you you can I think buy tickets on their app, but other than that, I don't think you can do anything else. And so I just think that an app ultimately, of course, you want it practically to buy tickets, but also I think that you want people to go back to your app. And I mentioned last season that uh, you know, how much I applauded the New York Times for buying Wordle and how great that is because even if you're not reading the New York Times every day, you might go to go and do your wordle every day, you know, depending on who you are, you know. Um but I I tend to do wordle first thing in the morning, and so I'm always reminded of the New York Times every time I go and do my wordle. And it has nothing to do with the New York Times, you know what I mean? But the brand is ringing in my mind, yeah, subconsciously daily.

Tasha Van Vlack: 47:57

I think I would always hesitate to add in unless you have a concrete plan for a community platform and you have someone on your team who's gonna monitor it. You know, I see so many nonprofits get stuck in the forum bubble, they have a Slack or they start a Slack or they start a circle, mighty networks, there's all these tools out there. Who's going to moderate that? Who is going to keep conversations rolling? If people sign up for things and ultimately go to, hey, we've got an app, we've got a community, and they get there and nothing is happening, or it's just a broadcast spot and you're doing the exact same broadcasting over your email, over social media, over all of those different places, I think it actually can often hurt your nonprofits brand and be just a total, you could pay for it, spend all this money, and nothing's happening. And so it actually can sometimes be, I think, a little damaging if you create and put all this effort in monetarily to an app, but also with time and energy. And then people get there and they have expectations of what it means because it's a community app or a community tool, and there's no community happening there. Well, what does that mean when they see that? So I honestly in general say to people double down any extra time your nonprofit has, which you probably don't have much, go and do the peopleing. Don't try to automate community, probably any further than you already have.

Elizabeth Bowman: 49:25

Yeah. I mean, an email can can likely do the same job. Getting people to sign up for the email list is exactly more powerful. And then you can have all the links to everything you have. Totally agreed. Because yeah, when but the New York Times obviously has way more money than any of these.

Tasha Van Vlack: 49:43

They've got a whole, yeah, whole different model. Like, I mean, if all of a sudden your nonprofit is able to buy Wordle, I would maybe give a very different answer. But you know, like you noted, it's not actually really that connected to anything the New York Times is doing, other than it's just a great entry point to push people towards a New York Times subscription. I don't know very many non nonprofits who would have a game that they said could so closely tie to what their mission and vision is that they would probably feel comfortable having that as part of their app in the first place.

Elizabeth Bowman: 50:14

Yeah. No, for sure. I just love the the the fact that that that I do that and then it slides there. And I think they they bought that game for $50,000. That's ridiculous. Which, you know, I well, I think it's a small amount of money for what it does.

Tasha Van Vlack: 50:34

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Bowman: 50:35

Yeah, no. They really got a a good thing.

Tasha Van Vlack: 50:38

Kudos to them. Yeah, kudos to them. That's amazing.

Elizabeth Bowman: 50:41

Good good for them. But yeah, no, I think that our expectation is much more when an app is involved. And so I would absolutely agree. Like, if I all I can do is that like when I went onto the the Met app and couldn't find the stream, and maybe it was just me, maybe it's there again. Yeah. Maybe it's right in front of my face.

Tasha Van Vlack: 51:03

I would actually think it's more powerful every day of the week. Probably your website is going to convert better than an app anyway, right? And I don't know about you, but I have probably 60 random. I every once in a while I go through and get rid of things again, and I'll even delete an airline app and then I'll just be like, oh no, I'll bring it back in when I need it, right? And do the sign in again because it just clutters your brain. And I think most of us are looking for the simplest way forward for sure. Make sure people can buy things on your website because that is probably how they are searching. If if they if they're searching for tickets to a show, they're probably doing that online, not on an app. So I've forgotten that I had apps and then been forced to re-download them. Because I was like, did I actually have this app at one point? I clearly did, but I didn't even remember that it was there. So I think our phones can be a bit of a black hole, and you're probably better at investing, you know, in a really clear website design for conversion instead.

Elizabeth Bowman: 52:00

Yeah. And once you get people to sign up for the email list, I mean, often there's a button that allows you to sign up for the SMS reminders or, you know, SMS communication as well. So that's an incredibly powerful mode of communication I find, getting SMSs from well, I get them from a million things because I keep signing my life away to various brands when I'm you know 20% off if I sign up for the SMS list.

Tasha Van Vlack: 52:30

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. If you were a nonprofit, I'd be investing in SMS over probably most community-based apps.

Elizabeth Bowman: 52:37

Yeah, awesome. Well, I I feel like we could talk for much longer, but I think that this is gonna be a long episode for my average length of episode. So thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having this conversation. I'm so glad we connected.

Tasha Van Vlack: 52:51

Hey, this is wonderful. Thanks so much for having me on, Elizabeth. And you know, I much love to performing arts nonprofits because I think they often have something really magical. They just often aren't sure what to do with that magic. And so I hopefully some of this is helpful.