(1).jpg)
The Scene Room
The Scene Room Podcast spotlights the movers and makers redefining the performing arts—focusing on innovative marketing, leadership, and the importance of collaboration. Hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman, with a keen eye on audience trends and cultural shifts, the goal is to explore how artists and organizations are connecting with communities, shaping the future, and redefining what it means to engage and inspire.
The Scene Room
Joel Ivany — Bridging Tradition and Innovation in Opera
In this episode, Elizabeth Bowman sits down with Joel Ivany, the visionary Artistic Director of Edmonton Opera and Director of Opera at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity. Joel shares his passion for community outreach and engagement, focusing on how opera can continue to resonate with new audiences.
They explore the evolving landscape of audience retention, emphasizing how surveys and feedback can help transform casual attendees into lifelong opera enthusiasts. Could Augmented Reality play a role in making opera more accessible? Joel and Elizabeth imagine iconic opera scenes brought to life in unexpected places—picture experiencing a live aria in a remote village, all through AR.
The conversation also delves into the balance between opera’s rich, centuries-old traditions and the technological innovations that could shape its future. Moments of rest and reflection, Joel believes, can spark groundbreaking ideas that challenge the way we experience and connect with art.
Mentioned in this podcast: Opera Canada's The Opera Glasses Podcast can be listened to here https://operaglasses.buzzsprout.com/
The Augmented Reality Example talked about was made by Darabase https://www.linkedin.com/posts/darabase_ar-spatialweb-outofhome-activity-7276916102150991872-9yko
All episodes are also available in video form on our YouTube Channel. All episodes are hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman.
Don’t forget to subscribe, share the love, and leave us a review to show your support—it means a lot to us!
Don't hesitate to reach out to us with guest ideas, information you'd like covered, or any ideas you might have—the hope is for this to be a continuous resource and dialogue with our listeners.
Visit TheSceneRoom.com for more information.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to the Scene Room. Today I have Joel Ivany here. He is the Artistic Director of Edmonton Opera in Canada. He's also the Artistic Director of Opera at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity. He is the founder of Against the Grain Theatre in Toronto and he always has really interesting things to say. I'm so pleased that he agreed to come and have this conversation with me. Joel, welcome to the scene room. Thanks so much for coming.
Joel Ivany:Lizzie, it's great to be in the scene room. Thanks for the invite. Looking forward to this.
Elizabeth Bowman:We talked on my previous podcast, the Opera Glasses podcast, which is still going, hosted by the new editor, Michael Jones, so you guys can, after you're done with this, maybe go check that out. Yes, but it's really great to talk to you again and I wanted to really focus this episode since you're now settled in Edmonton. For how long have you been there now?
Joel Ivany:This is my fourth into the fourth year.
Elizabeth Bowman:Right. So the reason why I wanted to ask you, as a settled artistic director in Edmonton, is you have a new audience base that is different than the Toronto one that you explored, and I wanted to dive in there and see what you've been experiencing there with your artistic vision, marketing, audience engagement and all that good stuff. Let's just dive right in. What strategies have you found most effective in capturing new audiences? And I guess the audience entirely was new to you, so tell us a little bit about that.
Joel Ivany:So some of it is very simple in terms of just like. What I found shocking in some ways is that people in Edmonton many still did not even know that Edmonton had an opera company. So meaning, like I met someone yesterday who associated opera with Paris, with London, like sort of the biggest of the most European grandness of what opera is for a lot of people and what is still, but that they couldn't necessarily fathom that it could be something in the city that they live in, which is Edmonton. And you know we're immersed in a community and colleagues and friends that have, you know we think opera, we think classical music kind of all day. So it's easy to kind of forget that not everyone thinks that way.
Joel Ivany:So I think there's something very simple in whether that is billboards, whether that is in our print media, whether that is in you know, we do radio ads here. You have to drive around a lot in Edmonton, a little bit more than the public transit in Toronto. So it's kind of what is people's reception on what they hear when they hear the word opera and so what are we attaching to them? So when you say strategies like debunking a little bit of what opera is in terms of saying it is not, elite saying it is. So again, all those innovative buzzwords, accessible for everyone, relatable current issues today, and it can also be the paris stuff as well have you raised your community engagement projects?
Elizabeth Bowman:are you out in the community? Do you find that that helps?
Joel Ivany:yes, a big thing that in toronto I didn't necessarily always see the opera on television as well, whereas it seems like more in these smaller cities. In Toronto it's a lot easier to get on television, to have these television stations which I don't know Again. I think a certain demographic are still watching TV stations. Obviously there's also a certain demographic that you're also streaming. So it's kind of those are different platforms and different ways that we access. But getting out to the community, having a touch point to just say hey, we're here, not you just have to come to us, but we're also going to go out to you, is something that we, I think, have to do.
Elizabeth Bowman:And you obviously started doing a lot of that community engagement through your against the Grain work. Have you brought any of those ideas to Edmonton? Have you repeated anything that has been effective for you?
Joel Ivany:One thing that we do, which has its own kind of following and audience, is we do our opera. So that's like one where once a month we are singing traditional opera and also musical theater, some art song like it's not the same formula every month, but we go into traditional opera and also musical theater, some art song Like it's not the same formula every month, but we go into a bar and we sing and it's packed every single time. We do it once a month, and so for some people they are not seasoned subscribers or regular attendees at the larger operas, but they do not miss an opera pub, but they do not miss an opera pub, and so I can't complain that that is giving opera to our communities and also sharing what Edmonton Opera is doing out there. And if we stop doing that, would they show up to the opera? Probably not, but so what then is opera to an individual?
Elizabeth Bowman:Can I ask do you have any data that backs up the people who have experienced the opera pubs, who then go to the opera and who are then repeatedly going to the opera? So audience retention.
Joel Ivany:Do I have data? No, does it exist? I'm sure it does. So if you're interested in wanting to kind of come and do residency with Edmonton Opera, hey, we welcome that. I think it's there and capturable. But that's exactly the type of things which a lot of times we just don't have capacity but I think could be things that could really unlock a new strategy. We're so caught up in doing what was instead of trying what can be.
Elizabeth Bowman:I think there's some information online that I've read that talks about how a lot of people go to operas for the first time but then don't repeat the experience. Yeah, and you know, I find that that's sort of fascinating. So audience retention is obviously a big issue in our industry. Fascinating. So audience retention is obviously a big issue in our industry and I feel like you're doing such a great job engaging with the community, which has to ultimately help. Even if you don't have the numbers to back it up, I think that if you did do a survey, you would find that that makes a huge difference.
Joel Ivany:And that's actually a great survey. And that could be one of the ways we do these surveys through our emails, which give back incredible feedback which we can then implement change and so maybe, yeah, that's just triggering a good somehow, yeah, we'll pull our next audience or somehow include that in one of our surveys. You got to get them, you got to entice them to. They're not the sexiest fill out or survey, but when you do, you get good information.
Elizabeth Bowman:It is what it is. It's the sort of necessary evil within the marketing and planning, artistic planning world. I want to tell the audience a little bit of a story about. I guess I took a break from Opera Canada. Well, I didn. I took a break from Opera Canada. Well, I didn't take a break. I concluded my time with Opera Canada and then was taking a break from all professional things, and I reached out to you because I saw a LinkedIn post about augmented reality Halloween decorations.
Elizabeth Bowman:Yes yes, and I thought, oh my goodness, I need to go, I need to call Joel and see what he thinks about yes, yes, I think we came up with some really good ideas. So I thought, even though we haven't executed any of these things, I thought it was worth sort of exploring this on this podcast episode.
Joel Ivany:Like we are using technology now right, Like to do this. So it's kind of it's an amazing way to share information. So it's kind of, in some ways, we are so archaic in how we implement art, which is beautiful and nostalgic, but we also have to move things along and use the tools that are available to let the art evolve at the same time.
Elizabeth Bowman:I think that with augmented reality, everyone who's listening, like they have the technology now to basically you could take your phone and point it at a building and there could be a champagne party on the roof and huge bottles of champagne pouring everywhere. It could be an advertisement for Die Fledermaus , you know, which is obviously an opera based around a ballroom and scene. We were talking about recreating Cafe Momus from La Boheme in multiple cities around the world and doing a virtual installation, and they have all this technology where you can actually engage with the characters in these installations so you could talk to them, you could input AI personalities into all of them and then learn about when the opera was made, what the character was thinking, the setting, a whole lot of stuff or what am I trying to say?
Joel Ivany:How many people in North America actually possess a cell phone? Like we are all carrying around these super mini computers?
Elizabeth Bowman:So that is already removing one of the major barriers right there, and I know that Edmonton Opera is big on getting out to remote places. I know you guys were just in.
Joel Ivany:Whitehorse. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman:Yeah, I'm not sure what you were doing, but I just saw it across my feed and thought, oh, that's so great. But these sort of augmented reality installations where, for instance, you could have all of Act Two of La Boheme, could be in a remote place that doesn't necessarily have access to that kind of talent or that kind of production and people could experience it there. That's the thing.
Joel Ivany:Like we had one conversation with a community that has an opera company and they're like oh, I don't know if we can bring in that set because literally the the road to our community is so dangerous, like we either build it here or like you can fly it in and like fold everything. So it's kind of imagine if you could say oh, like we can give you a million dollar production, like we'll give you act two of love om, with like an incredible orchestra, a great cast of singers, and all you need is your phone. Like who, who wouldn't do? Do that?
Elizabeth Bowman:There's definitely a level of accessibility to this idea and obviously there's aspects of this that you know would need to be worked out legally, you know, because the creative would be traveling around, everyone would have to be compensated for however many times that production went to whatever place, and it would have to be set up for that place. So it's not like it would be a free thing, but it's certainly an option. If you have a set problem, you could have the live singers there and basically it would be like a green screen for them.
Joel Ivany:That's the thing with technology, Like it's so you can do so much and so many different possibilities. And in my experience with any kind of work with AR, with VR, like 95% of the work is those heroes behind a computer who are turning through renderings and like all the boring stuff to get to the point where then hey, look at this, right, yeah, it'd be awesome.
Elizabeth Bowman:It would be awesome and I also think that because of the storylines in opera being so, so wild, and I mean there's there's so much imagery and color to a lot of these productions that there's a lot of opportunity for corporate sponsorships to partner, because they're all looking for sort of memorable, vibrant, almost cartoon-esque scenes which basically epitomizes what opera is like visually, you know.
Joel Ivany:It's like and Wagner was someone who he called it the Gesamtkulturer like this big, massive idea and I I almost a hundred percent would say that if, if that technology was available back then he totally would have incorporated it in terms of he was doing crazy technological stuff on stage because that's what they had. He wanted to make the fantastical a reality and to to do that like you're seeing it in Hollywood with cg, like all these movies have a formula. They know what works and they can. They can try to find it somewhere in Arizona or Orillia or wherever it's the cheapest place, or you can kind of get it perfect in a computer, which is scary but it's also amazing.
Elizabeth Bowman:It is scary, but it doesn't omit a lot of the creative elements. You still need to have that set concept. You still need to have even the lighting concept, because it will also be altered by where that production is standing.
Joel Ivany:Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman:You still need the creative elements. So I do think it's sort of definitely worth exploring, especially in terms of accessibility and in terms of possibility in terms of partnerships.
Joel Ivany:And Knowing that you got that idea from taking a break, like a pause in terms of I'm just going to relax for a bit and see where this is and like ideas start coming. So there's something as well about where we are today in terms of those who work in the arts, like we're working incredibly hard and under very challenging circumstances and under very challenging circumstances and it's okay at times I'm saying this for myself too to take a break, because that is also work in terms of letting new ideas and new thoughts kind of emerge.
Elizabeth Bowman:Yeah, you definitely need space even though it's hard to do, as people in the arts tend to be natural over workers, including myself, so that I mean that did take some, some effort to really just to cool down and not not do anything. And really this is sort of what this podcast is all about is of having these conversations about things I'm really interested in and what's going on in the industry, and that's how this podcast came to life, because it was a natural progression. I was, oh, I missed that about Opera Canada and I was like, well, why not just?
Elizabeth Bowman:keep talking about these things. Circling back, though, with the idea of modern technology and honoring tradition. You have explored this in some of your creative work already. How do you strike that balance of honoring that tradition and acknowledging modern?
Joel Ivany:One you can't be afraid, and that's a big thing, because in opera it can be a big financial risk at times to play with production. It can be a big financial risk at times to play with production, which is this whole sort of again this inherited notion that it's in these massive spaces with our subscriber base and we can't shake it too much. But again, you can't be afraid to trust on where your experience has brought you and then also to venture into the unknown, and that's kind of scary because you don't know where it will go. But you will also discover new.
Joel Ivany:And so, being in Edmonton, which has a more conservative base in terms of what a Gainesville Green Theatre had, we had massive success with our reimagined Orphea, which had a digital chorus, it had an electric guitar instead of the traditional string instruments in the orchestra and like hardcore heavy use of projections, and a lot of our traditional audience loved that, like they loved the piece, because it was the story, it was the opera, but it had a way of incorporating elements that they had never seen or heard at the opera before. Does that mean that formula will work every time? No, but you can't be afraid to try and your audience will, like, they'll let you know. They'll let you know what they like. They'll let you know if where you're going is successful and want to see more and that's what I love a lot about where you ensure that Edmonton Opera's programming reflects the identity and culture of Edmonton.
Joel Ivany:How one determines one's identity is an interesting thing as well. It was again driving yesterday, which you do a lot of driving in Edmonton, and I put on the radio, so embracing my inner Albertan, and it was all about identity Do you identify as a Canadian, do you identify as an Albertan, do you identify as an Edmontonian? And the wide variety of answers from these people who were texting and emailing and calling in was vast. And so there's no way that the opera can please everybody, and I would say that is true to anywhere. You just can't do it. So it's more who do you choose? How do you choose?
Joel Ivany:And I love embracing a collaborative effort with our team, and that also includes our audience. Again, it can be difficult, but asking surveys, having focus groups, a collaborative effort with that, with our team, and that also includes our audience. By again, it can be difficult, but asking surveys, having focus groups, asking questions on social media and saying this is your company. So what do you, what do you want to see, what do you want to hear, and how can we help change that?
Elizabeth Bowman:Do you have partnerships with Edmonton based organizations, strengthening your relationship with the community and the city?
Joel Ivany:We're working on that for sure. Other arts organizations are a big one, I think, the last five years. People are still trying to figure out how it all works, because there's a lot of new people in places and so that newness, there's an opportunity for working together with groups and people that didn't exist before. So, yes, and just saying, hey, how can we pool our strengths and resources together to create something new? And for me, I'm pretty sure that will always happen in my career, wherever I'm at in terms of just let's not do things the same old way if it wasn't successful, because how will it change? So let's work on things the same old way if it wasn't successful, because how will it change? So let's work on making things better.
Elizabeth Bowman:Do you think that the way forward for overall Canada Canadian arts organizations, since you're based in Canada, do you think that collaboration is really the name of the game? I imagine you collaborate with the Edmonton Symphony. I don't know if you collaborate with any other arts organizations there, but how important is that?
Joel Ivany:For me hugely and I would think it's the same if you can like. We talked about space, if you can carve out space to listen to art organizations. We have a great collaboration with the Citadel Theater, which they don't do opera. We have a great collaboration with the Citadel Theatre, which they don't do opera, but they have a space downtown and we're doing the same thing. So we have this great collaboration with them, which has taken again this is my fourth year, so four years of kind of regularly meeting, conversing and talking, and same with the symphony and the Edmonton Arts Council. So, yes, the university. There's this incredible connection between universities in our cities which are producing opera singers, and why don't we have a greater connection between our universities and our opera companies in the city as well, beyond, just we just both do opera. So I do think it is. I think that takes more work in some ways because we each want to do things our own ways, so maybe not 100% all the time, but collaboration is just like dividing those percentages, right.
Elizabeth Bowman:That makes a lot of sense in terms of the universities having relationships with the presenting arts organizations. I know when I grew up and I went to the University of Ottawa and Opera Lyra was the company in Ottawa that has since folded, unfortunately, but they had sort of a relationship with the University of Ottawa for their young artists program. So I was grateful to them for that because I did both studying opera at the University of Ottawa and then also their young artists program, which they they understood the schedule and made it possible for me to do both.
Joel Ivany:Yeah, I know, I know there's a course in Victoria made it possible for me to do both. Yeah, I know, I know there's a course in Victoria where, if you're at the university of Victoria, the course is like you get you sing in the Pacific opera Victoria professional company. So it's happening at some places. And I think Canada is so huge, it's just hard to really get together to know what's going on elsewhere, to not just say we want to replicate it, but just learn from it, talk and just kind of say what's working and what, what isn't necessarily can I ask you how important email marketing is to your company?
Joel Ivany:you can and this is a great question, because we've all gotten those emails right. Right, in terms of, like, how often you get spam by emails, how often you get targeted emails. I think emails can be incredibly effective in terms of how we deliver messages to these right. I even think we're trying to investigate even texting, like when you sign up to buy a certain pair of shoes, they want your email and your cell phone number to be able to send marketing to your phones. So the way that we can target who gets certain emails, who you can leave off, who you can include, is incredibly powerful because and again that just shows you right it's technology, it's our email. Where do we access our emails? On our computers or our phones or on our wrists? So, kind of, how do we just remind people that we're there and that, if you like something, that you can get more of it?
Elizabeth Bowman:I don't know why not more arts organizations don't use the texting. I mean, once you buy a ticket, you should automatically be subscribed to text updates. But they should be creative.
Joel Ivany:Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman:Not like the show's next week.
Joel Ivany:Yeah, Like will me make it Throw up next week to find out.
Elizabeth Bowman:I honestly think that would be funny. It would raise some sort of intrigue if you had creative text written.
Joel Ivany:So I, Because we're not a shoe company right sort of intrigue if you had creative text written. So I, because we're not a shoe company, right? We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not. Lego, which is even more creative, like we are an arts organization which deals with creativity and stories and imaginations. Yeah, we need to inject that into everything we do.
Elizabeth Bowman:The last time I talked to Kate Pizzaroni, lenny's Studio. She's a great communicator for anyone listening. We had a conversation about how opera companies should be texting and should incorporate more interesting content in that realm. They could send a quick link to an interview.
Joel Ivany:Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman:And it could be. Will Mimi make it? And then it could be Mimi in the final scene. I don't you know what I mean.
Joel Ivany:Doing the rehearsal and the rehearsal garb. Yeah, exactly 30 seconds of the most beautiful music to say I can't wait to go hear this live. Yeah, I know.
Elizabeth Bowman:Anything.
Joel Ivany:Anything.
Elizabeth Bowman:Let's get more creative. Anyway, let's get more creative. Anyway. I I love having you on any podcast. So thanks so much for coming on to this podcast and I look forward to many more conversations with you about opera, performing arts, augmented reality, halloween decorations I know I love that.
Joel Ivany:Thank you for the invite, lizzie, because our chats are always provocative. They're always burning more thoughts, and that's what this, that's what I love about this business, so that's why we need more of it. So thank you for that and best of luck with the podcast.
